ATC Training

As an occasional vatsim user, I am always highly impressed by the dedication and professionalism of the mentors and the training structure.  Being a voluntary organisation, the training timings are prolonged, but this is a result of the voluntary basis rather than the cause.  I imagine the numbers being trained on such a basis are still impressive.

So my limited input here is - you guys are fantastic, and I have perceived no problems in my training.  Perhaps don't overthink the situation you're asking for input on?

I am also a professional teacher, and would be happy to help with mentoring if required.

Firstly, a couple of problems with the "I'm an S1 that wants to mentor once I get my S2, so let me get my training quicker!" scheme.

1. The most obvious one is that people will take advantage of this system, and will most likely lie. After completeing their S2 training, a person might not want to become a mentor (this also includes becoming a mentor and not being active), as they will have nothing to lose - VATSIM UK can not do anything to these people. Possibly give them a local ban, but they can't even restrict their further training if they wanted to (S2 to S3) under VATSIM regulations (someone may correct me on this).

2. This one is the most important one - we will have people that will not be able to become a mentor due to availability reasons, or will simply not want to as they prefer to be a Pilot, or for any other reason. Is it fair to leave these guys in the queue? Surely there will be mroe people wanting to mentor (just to get their training quicker).

3. At this point we also need to ask ourselves how many mentors is too many - if we get a bunch of S1s putting down their name for becoming a mentor once getting their S2's, at which point do we say stop?

As someone who only got their S2 relatively recently, I do understand all of the S1's that want to do this. I probably would have liked this to be available, but look at it from this perspective. This would open a lot of loopholes in the system and that is definetely not a good thing.

Pre-Exams:

I agree with people that talked about pre-exams; they are a pain for both students and TGI's. Getting rid of them could possibly slightly increase the amount of exam fails, but if we have a system of 2 mentors saying that the student is ready for an exam, it may get rid of this problem.

Back to the topic of this news post:

Overall, as the whole staff team and mentors are all volunteers, I think the ATC department is doing a great job. I do, however, believe that some things may be improved; more Moodle courses should be created and more group seminars should be held, to speed up both S1 to S2 training, along with S2 to S3 training.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Tom Szczypinski

11 minutes ago, Tom Szczypinski said:

Firstly, a couple of problems with the "I'm an S1 that wants to mentor once I get my S2, so let me get my training quicker!" scheme.

1. The most obvious one is that people will take advantage of this system, and will most likely lie. After completeing their S2 training, a person might not want to become a mentor (this also includes becoming a mentor and not being active), as they will have nothing to lose - VATSIM UK can not do anything to these people. Possibly give them a local ban, but they can't even restrict their further training if they wanted to (S2 to S3) under VATSIM regulations (someone may correct me on this).

2. This one is the most important one - we will have people that will not be able to become a mentor due to availablitiy reasons, or will simply not want to as they prefer to be a Pilot, or for any other reason. Is it fair to leave these guys in the queue? Surely there will be mroe people wanting to mentor (just to get their training quicker).

3. At this point we also need to ask ourselves how many mentors is too many - if we get a bunch of S1s putting down their name for becoming a mentor once getting their S2's, at which point do we say stop?

As someone who only got their S2 relatively recently, I do understand all of the S1's that want to do this. I probably would have liked this to be available, but look at it from this perspective. This would open a lot of loopholes in the system and that is definetely not a good thing.

6

I do agree, there are a lot of cons and the only pro is gaining a few mentors from those S1s who are true to their word.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Thomas Hallam

9 hours ago, James Yuen said:

Seb, the whole point is they shouldn't really need to deal with that high workload capacity on a day-to-day basis. What's the point of testing student's ability to control at high workload just to show that they're competent? I've Ctrl+F/CMD+F the GRP and it doesn't mention workload anywhere. Therefore: let students loose on positions when they're competent - some of the VATUK exams I've seen are a joke - instead of having designated 'exams' - why not let a group of instructors sign off on sessions, and if they have 3 'sign-offs' then rating is sorted? Prevents the countless go-arounds or rejected takeoffs in exams - at the end of the day: a Thursday evening on VATSIM won't have 6 go arounds and 3 RTOs- even at Heathrow!!

The ops department put a lot of effort putting the VRPs in the sector file so I don't have to fumble around AIPs to find the coordinates of VRPs - so no - if someone wants to find out the 'niggles' about an airport then they can put their own effort into digging into an AIP than making a staff member who could probably be doing something 50x more useful and fun than that. 

What I was saying is at a basic level - restrictions should be lifted! Keep and enhance the advanced area of training as that's what VATUK like, but split it up! Some people (*cough* @Jonas Hey *cough* ) won't touch an airport like EGLL so don't bother teaching them RSIVA at a detailed level - you don't need to be able to launch 30+ aircraft in a sweatbox at one go to get an S2 - once you are an S2 - then that's a good skill to develop!

Ok, I see your point now, 'twas just an idea, but surely, if it is Instructors as opposed to mentors needed for the "sign-offs" (mentors would still do their jobs) then it would possibly create a larger problem? (more instructor time needed?)

Edited February 22, 2018 by Sebastian Wheeler

The whole student fast track thing could probably work S2->S3 and S3->C1, less so S1->S2 based on previous mentoring hours or 'time invested in the division' (however one would interpret that)

Students should apply equal effort as the mentors, learn the stuff in your free time and get through quicker. I learnt the content for s2 and got through with 4 sessions, someone else was then able to take my place. There is nothing more annoying than mentoring someone who hasn't bothered to put any effort in to learn the stuff. Self study should be made known to students when they're offered a place.

 

8 hours ago, James Yuen said:

The whole student fast track thing could probably work S2->S3 and S3->C1, less so S1->S2 based on previous mentoring hours or 'time invested in the division' (however one would interpret that)

agreed.

 

22 minutes ago, Loui Ringer said:

Students should apply equal effort as the mentors, learn the stuff in your free time and get through quicker. I learnt the content for s2 and got through with 4 sessions, someone else was then able to take my place. There is nothing more annoying than mentoring someone who hasn't bothered to put any effort in to learn the stuff. Self study should be made known to students when they're offered a place.

 

Or possibly before, eg. when joining CTNC, then when being given their S1, then again on being given an S2 place? (Just to keep it fresh)

8 hours ago, Loui Ringer said:

Students should apply equal effort as the mentors, learn the stuff in your free time and get through quicker. I learnt the content for s2 and got through with 4 sessions, someone else was then able to take my place. There is nothing more annoying than mentoring someone who hasn't bothered to put any effort in to learn the stuff. Self study should be made known to students when they're offered a place.

 

I fully agree, I think when it finally comes the introduction of the s2 Moodle will help a huge amount but the seminars are a great idea and It gives people the chance to learn some of the theory before they even have a session. The thing that is the best about the Moodle courses is that you can learn all the theory before even having a session meaning when you begin your training you know what you are supposed to do and will only need to practice, this could mean people might not even need 4 sessions as they can know all the theory and then go and practice on a solo validation. Basically what I am trying to say is that the Moodle courses should be released as soon as possible. I realise they take a lot of time to produce but they are the easiest to learn from and will have the biggest effect on waiting times for a training place. 

I agree with all of this, more mentors maybe? People who are maybe mentoring higher up at C1 ect. if they had time on their hands might want to help out the with S2 training if they can just to try speed things up. People that eventually gain their S2 should surely want to mentor S1-S2 as they have just gone through the slow process recently. Maybe make it mandatory to mentor or at least help out with mentoring or help with sessions once u gain S2. I realise that that will be quite hard as not everybody is as interested in the community side of things and more the actual controlling/flying side but I think it would speed the process up if we had more people helping out after they've got their rating instead of leaving and doing their own thing.

Another thing would possibly help would be to get more S1 controllers to Mentor OBS-S1 so that S2 controllers can focus on S1-S2.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Andrew Macleod

3 hours ago, Andrew Macleod said:

mandatory to mentor

Somebody can correct me if I am wrong but I am pretty sure you wouldn't be able to do that, we are better of having a good number (whatever that is) of dedicated mentors who honestly want to help others.

 

4 hours ago, Andrew Macleod said:

get more S1 controllers to Mentor OBS-S1

If we can do this then it is an amazing idea but I only ever seem to see s2 controllers mentoring obs-s1. I thought the only mentoring s1's could do Is the Gatwick and Manchester familiarisation sessions.

Thank you all for the input so far. We have just over 36 hours left before the consultation closes, so if you’ve got anything you want to add, please make sure you comment :)

If feel S1s should be allowed to apply to be a  mentor and get their mentor training whilst they are still S1 so that when they get S2 they can mentor straight away. I am to believe this doesn't already happen if it does please ignore this.

23 minutes ago, Thomas Hallam said:

If feel S1s should be allowed to apply to be a  mentor and get their mentor training whilst they are still S1 so that when they get S2 they can mentor straight away. I am to believe this doesn't already happen if it does please ignore this.

Hi Thomas,

S1's can mentor at the moment. We have a bank of S1's offering familiarisation training at Manchester and Gatwick endorsement training at Gatwick.

40 minutes ago, Fraser Cooper said:

Hi Thomas,

S1's can mentor at the moment. We have a bank of S1's offering familiarisation training at Manchester and Gatwick endorsement training at Gatwick.

Ignore what I said then.

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Thomas Hallam

Out of interest, why are pre-exams almost always conducted by ATC staff members? There have been a few instances in which this has not been the case; however, it is true for the majority of pre-exams. There are several mentors who are more experienced than the TGIs and certainly have the ability and knowledge to conduct pre-exams. The possession of a staff role is irrelevant when considering one's ability to conduct a pre-exam; the member's involvement in the student's training, however, is relevant.

Any mentor (staff, or not) should have the ability to conduct pre-exams, assuming that:

1. they are familiar with the format of an ATC examination (which can easily be achieved by reading the relevant documentation);
2. they haven't had a significant involvement in the student's training (i.e. they have conducted few, or no, mentoring sessions with the student);
3. they are an experienced mentor on the position (i.e. they have conducted over x hours of mentoring sessions on the position).

Edited February 25, 2018 by Oliver Gates

Thank you all for your input, the consultation is now closed. We will now begin the process of collating all the points made in this thread. Once this has been completed, a document will be released containing these points and how (if possible), the ATC Training Department intends to address them in the near future. These action points may then be monitored throughout the year as a measure of progress.

Edited February 26, 2018 by Andy Ford