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atc-discussion Mentoring top down for Twr & App


Robin Meads

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Robin Meads

When there is a mentoring session for TWR or APP, it is not obvious that controllers below are required to close so that the session can be fully top down. (Is this so in every case ?). I think that a proper closure procedure should be used, for example :

AIR1 moves to GMC room on TS  - "AIR1 - GMC"

GMC "Send message"

AIR1 "Top Down mentoring. Please close"

GMC "Standby for closure"

GND voice on Euroscope "All stations. Manchester Ground now closing. For further ATC contact Tower on ... "

GMC closes Atis if controlling it

GMC disconnects Euroscope

GMC "AIR1 - GMP"

AIR1 "send message"

GMC "GMC now closed. (You have Atis)"

This is then repeated with GMP if online, but GMC first.  If App mentoring and Twr on line then start with Twr and work down.

Also as a pilot, it is disconcerting to suddenly find that a controller I have been in contact is suddenly no longer on line. It would be helpful if all controllers would do an all stations broadcast that they are closing, even if they think no one is listening.

 

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Alex Hodgkinson

Not quite sure what exactly you're getting at? Because mentoring on Approach doesn't require the closure of positions underneath the Approach Position. However, in the case of mentoring on Ground or Tower, then yes, in accordance with Article 3.2 of the Divisional Policy, the position underneath should close, and permission granted from the mentor before it is reopened/split. See here.

As for the coordination, well that can be however you want it to be! No scripting required.

Edited by Alex Hodgkinson
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Luke Peters

If you are closing a position (not handing off to another controller on the same position) you should be handing all of your traffic off to the next controller (or if necessary UNICOM) anyway.

Whether that is individually or an all stations broadcast (in which case repeat it in text in case there are pilots AFK when you make the broadcast) depends on the situation.

This also extends to other situations as well. Make sure you tell the position above/below you that you are closing!

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George Peppard

Anything we do in this scenario will be a VATSIM-ism. CAP 493 won't have procedures for handing over to an overlying controller due to a virtual mentoring session that requires you to disconnect.

The process to close a position remains the same for any case - inform the relieving controller what is happening, hand off pilots to the new frequency and you're sorted.

You could even use one of the handy acronyms in this thread (whilst not all of it will apply to a GND/DEL controller, they are a good starting point): 

 

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Nick Szewciw

Hang on....everything you said in the OP is exactly what does happen...at least it has every time I had to either log off for a mentoring session or log on for one. 

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Robin Meads

Interesting replies guys. I can understand what the controller underneath should do. It just that the higher controller needs to be clear as to what is required, for newbies in particular. This is the first time I have been aware that for an App session, Gnd & Del do not have to close. Also, it is not obvious to a newbie that a Twr mentoring session will be fully top down (is it always ?), so the person coming onto Twr for a mentoring session should inform Gnd etc why they are to close. The 2 times I have been involved in this have been totally confusing, as these aspects are not covered in training.

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Alex Hodgkinson

When there is training on a radar position, why would the AIR/GMC units underneath need to close? The student will already hold and S2 (therefore deemed competent) therefore why do they need to 'learn' the AIR/GMC functions?

And yes, when there is a tower mentoring session, the underlying positions should close (See Art 3.7 of DivPol).

Edited by Alex Hodgkinson
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Kye Taylor
On 10/09/2020 at 12:24, Robin Meads said:

AIR1 moves to GMC room on TS  - "AIR1 - GMC"

GMC "Send message"

AIR1 "Top Down mentoring. Please close"

GMC "Standby for closure"

GND voice on Euroscope "All stations. Manchester Ground now closing. For further ATC contact Tower on ... "

GMC closes Atis if controlling it

GMC disconnects Euroscope

GMC "AIR1 - GMP"

AIR1 "send message"

GMC "GMC now closed. (You have Atis)"

Hiya! As you have found out, all tower training is under topdown unless overwise stated.
Also your example of codination is wrong, even more so when handing over to the mentoring session. A tower student needs to know the situtation on the ground, it isnt enough just to send them on to towers freq.

Try to structure your handover and the readback using C.R.A.F.T.

Controllers  - Who is online that effects this airport

Runways - What is the active runway?

ATIS - Dropping it? Airport weather conditions - LVPS? Anything out of the norm? 

Flow -  Anything Funny? Odd, nonstandard, Coordinated, Pre-notes?

Traffic -  What's going on. Anyone Taxing, Pushing, Cleared
 

And a small little thing, Its "Pass your message" 🙂

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