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Simon Howroyd

feedback Heathrow Single Runway Ops

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Simon Howroyd

Keen to follow real world ops and wondering why on Vatsim, EGLL has been doing dual runway ops lately when in real world they are doing singles, at least whenever I have been flying that's the case.

 

I am assuming because Vatsim is ironically busier than real life at the moment, but curious to know for sure.

 

Cheers, stay safe

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Fraser Cooper

Heathrow VATSIM has been having more movements than real life. If RW Heathrow had the movements that VATSIM Heathrow has been having, they would be dual runway also. 
 

If it’s quiet enough, the Heathrow tower controllers seem to be simulating single runway ops. 

Edited by Fraser Cooper

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Simon Howroyd

Hi Fraser, many thanks for replying. Thought this was the case but curious as to whether I was correct. :) Kind regards

 

 

 

 

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Robbie Garrett

Btw from next Monday 27L/09R closed until end of September for resurfacing and structural improvements.

Quote

A2286/20 NOTAMN Q) EGTT/QMRLC/IV/NBO/A /000/999/5129N00028W005 A) EGLL B) 2007122259 C) 2009302259 E) RUNWAY 09R/27L CLOSED DUE WIP.

 

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Trevor Hannant

And hopefully when it's busy on here that won't be replicated

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Michael Benson

You'll be happy to know that I am pen pushing the instruction for this at this very moment 😏

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Robbie Garrett
1 hour ago, Michael Benson said:

You'll be happy to know that I am pen pushing the instruction for this at this very moment 😏

I've heard on the grapevine that T3 and T4 will remain closed till Summer 2021,  any substance? 

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Louie Lister
2 hours ago, Michael Benson said:

You'll be happy to know that I am pen pushing the instruction for this at this very moment 😏

Actually pen pushing or using a stylus? 👀

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Robbie Garrett

Just seen this online for what it’s worth. We shouldn’t implement It at all on vatsim. 

Phase 1 – full closure of the southern runway 

Quote

 

Phase 1 Summary

From 13 July 2020 to after 2 August 2020 at the earliest, the southern runway will be closed (during the day and night). The works will take place Monday to Saturday between 7am – 7pm. Only the northern runway will be in use during this period and so no runway alternation will take place.

 

Phase 2 – overnight closure of the southern runway (7pm - 7am)

Quote

 

Phase 2 Summary

From early August 2020 into September/October 2020, the southern runway will be closed for repairs between 7pm – 7am so only the northern runway will be in use during this period. The repairs will take place every day between 8pm-6am. Both runways will be in use between the hours of 7am – 7pm with runway alternation taking place at 3pm.

 

 

Source: https://www.heathrow.com/company/local-community/noise/latest-local-community-and-noise-news/southern-runway-repairs

 

 

Edited by Robbie Garrett

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Simon Kelsey
3 hours ago, Robbie Garrett said:

Makes it fun!

Hands up whose idea of fun is a 30 min departure delay and 20 min holding inbound whilst the runway with no construction equipment on it in the sim remains unused?

Do you know the traffic threshold LHR RW are basing this on?

Edit: Also, what time of day would you say VATSIM traffic at LHR peaks?

Edited by Simon Kelsey

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Arvid Hansson
3 hours ago, Robbie Garrett said:

...not sure why we can't fully implement...

Hi Robbie,

I've made this illustration that hopefully helps you understand why what you are proposing isn't feasible:

ITqIGIB.png

Hopefully this clears things up!

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Trevor Hannant
2 minutes ago, Arvid Hansson said:

Hi Robbie,

I've made this illustration that hopefully helps you understand why what you are proposing isn't feasible:

ITqIGIB.png

Hopefully this clears things up!

You owe me a new monitor @Arvid Hansson, this one's now covered in cider...  🤣

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Lewis Hardcastle
20 minutes ago, Arvid Hansson said:

Hi Robbie,

I've made this illustration that hopefully helps you understand why what you are proposing isn't feasible:

ITqIGIB.png

Hopefully this clears things up!

Please label your x axis and re-upload as many here will be unable to understand. 

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Robbie Garrett
1 hour ago, Arvid Hansson said:

Hi Robbie,

I've made this illustration that hopefully helps you understand why what you are proposing isn't feasible:

ITqIGIB.png

Hopefully this clears things up!

Last 24 HR Ops-

Heathrow RW - 350+

VATSIM - 400+

It's not much different.  But nice diagram though. 

2 hours ago, Simon Kelsey said:

Hands up whose idea of fun is a 30 min departure delay and 20 min holding inbound whilst the runway with no construction equipment on it in the sim remains unused?

Do you know the traffic threshold LHR RW are basing this on?

Edit: Also, what time of day would you say VATSIM traffic at LHR peaks?

No but logic says it will pick up as we head towards October, from the current 350+ movements per day. 

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Arvid Hansson
1 hour ago, Robbie Garrett said:

Last 24 HR Ops-

Heathrow RW - 350+

VATSIM - 400+

It's not much different.  But nice diagram though. 

It is very different, though. I am sure you're already aware that real life traffic is spread out and managed with a plethora of different techniques, so I won't spend time explaining my point. Instead, let's just look at the differences between real life (left) and VATSIM (right) LHR at 2120z:

nZhc7ye.png

We need to be smart when deciding where to draw the line between striving for ultimate realism and making compromises to suit our virtual operation. Forcing lengthy delays on pilots because real world LHR is currently operating on one runway is everything but smart. I'd go as far as saying it's downright arrogant, disrespectful and indicative of a fundamental inability to see the big picture.

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Robbie Garrett
18 minutes ago, Arvid Hansson said:

. I'd go as far as saying it's downright arrogant, disrespectful and indicative of a fundamental inability to see the big picture.

Bit like the BAW a/c that decided to fly through a busy stack and ignore my existence, and descend through a perfect stream of aircraft? Completely unacceptable. 

In fact I'll go as far as I don't really care if Vatsim Heathrow does single or dual ops. In all cases I've let the Heathrow AIR controller decide and I'll just try my best to get aircraft in or out. 

In fact the picture to the right was when both AIR & GMC decided to call it a night, multiple aircraft calling up and blocking vital transmissions on the ground and a combination of instructions not followed, pilot disconnects etc.  All limitations of the network -  I took the safe bet and held aircraft momentarily whilst things were under control.

Anyway - Thanks to those who decided to assist this evening by jumping on FIN & AIR at such short notice. 

 

Edited by Robbie Garrett

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Benjamin Matthews
Just now, Robbie Garrett said:

Bit like the BAW that decided to fly through a busy stack and ignore my existence, and descend through a perfect stream of aircraft? Completely unacceptable. 

In fact I'll go as far as I don't really care if Vatsim Heathrow does single or dual ops. In all cases I've let the Heathrow AIR controller decide and I'll just try my best to get aircraft in or out. 

In fact the picture to the right was when both AIR & GMC decided to call it a night, multiple aircraft calling up and blocking vital transmissions on the ground and a combination of instructions not followed, pilot disconnects -  I took the safe bet and held aircraft momentarily whilst things were under control.

Thanks to those who decided to assist this evening by jumping on FIN & AIR at such short notice. 

 

Don't think so.  When that screenshot was taken FIN, TWR & GND was on.

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Robbie Garrett
3 minutes ago, Benjamin Matthews said:

Don't think so.  When that screenshot was taken FIN, TWR & GND was on.

I'm referencing the airborne holding delay and it's cause. Nevermind.

Edited by Robbie Garrett

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James Yuen
6 hours ago, Arvid Hansson said:

It is very different, though. I am sure you're already aware that real life traffic is spread out and managed with a plethora of different techniques, so I won't spend time explaining my point. Instead, let's just look at the differences between real life (left) and VATSIM (right) LHR at 2120z:

nZhc7ye.png

We need to be smart when deciding where to draw the line between striving for ultimate realism and making compromises to suit our virtual operation. Forcing lengthy delays on pilots because real world LHR is currently operating on one runway is everything but smart. I'd go as far as saying it's downright arrogant, disrespectful and indicative of a fundamental inability to see the big picture.

From what little there is in this screenshot - here is some general analysis and what we should/should not be doing.

1. Whoever was on TWR and GND did not even make an attempt to source a replacement (according to Slack). Please use the Slack channel if you're controlling under someone (e.g. an APP controller/a CTR controller) as if you go to them saying 'closing in 5 mins' and haven't bothered to even attempt to sort a replacement out, they ain't gonna be too happy.

2. The presentation of traffic in that screenshot does not do too much justice. 'SHT3G' who is probably coming from Manchester and been given a loop around (no idea for what) - that shouldn't be happening.

3. You cannot blame pilot quality I'm afraid. After being on GND afterwards, the pilots were no where near shocking. In fairness - VATSIM pilots are not that 'newbish' at all - we have to all adapt and give them a service they understand. No point given track miles to EZY1 from KK to LL...

5 hours ago, Robbie Garrett said:

In all cases I've let the Heathrow AIR controller decide and I'll just try my best to get aircraft in or out.

This is suicidal in all senses I'm afraid. The Heathrow AIR controller has responsibility of the runway (S2 theory :)), however you can't just let them decide. Why? An S2 is not qualified/trained to derive radar data and know how many arrivals are coming in. It needs to be a tactical, coordinated decision. What does that mean, it means:

  • AIR knowing how many departures are on the GND, how many are cleared, how many are pushing, how many taxiing. How many departures are we anticipating in the next x minutes?
  • TC Heathrow knowing how many arrivals are inbound, how far out are they in miles.
  • With the knowledge, for both controllers to come up with a plan as to whether it would be sensible to operate with one runway or two runways?

The fact is - it would've been absolutely fine to operate yesterday with one runway or two runways. This is because there were not many arrivals coming in, but we decided to operate with dual runways. Had this been coordinated, APP would have had a prior idea as to how much spacing was required. If you are dumped with so much traffic like that, then prioritise communications. You should not need to hold aircraft to get a sense of what's going on. I opened VATSpy after 10 beers (ish) last night to see clusters of Heathrow inbounds and had no idea what was going on - now I realise.

  • Remember what you know from training. Imagine there's a FIN on, vector a stream such that it's presentable to yourself and you can work with.
  • Miles add up - keep the final approach as tight as you can so you can get the aircraft down. If you have 4.5 miles between aircraft instead of 3, then for 5 aircraft that's 7.5 miles lost in which almost 3 aircraft could've landed.
  • Your runway(s) is your primary maximising objective. Get the most in, get the most out. Heathrow gets an absurd amount of traffic on VATSIM (as you have identified above) so let's try to put our best performances.

PS: This is controlling feedback for everybody. Let's not be narrow-minded about our controlling. Think about what we're handing off to the next controller, think about the pilot's capabilities and limitations, but most importantly - think about everyone's enjoyment. The fact is - if you do what you do well, you will enjoy it. Let's not use VATSIM as a medium to drive each others patience through the roof. (unless you're @Ben Wright and you're trying to organise an event)

Edited by James Yuen

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Stuart Duncan
14 hours ago, Robbie Garrett said:

not sure why we can't fully implement with some stable procedures.  Makes it fun!

 

7 hours ago, Robbie Garrett said:

In fact I'll go as far as I don't really care if Vatsim Heathrow does single or dual ops.

Holy contradiction, Batman!

 

10 hours ago, Arvid Hansson said:

Hi Robbie,

I've made this illustration that hopefully helps you understand why what you are proposing isn't feasible:

ITqIGIB.png

Hopefully this clears things up!

A picture paints a thousand words" as the saying goes. This little infographic quickly and succinctly conveys to the reader the statistics involved.  Bravo!

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