Jump to content

discussion Vatsim-UK Feedback forms


Alex Hodgkinson

Recommended Posts

Alex Hodgkinson

Morning.

Would it be possible for individual members to see all their feedback that has been written against them? Both positive and negative? 

Reason? I believe there is a significant amount of feedback that’s not being seen by the membership probably because no-doubt each piece of feedback needs individually actioning by an individual to then be seen by the member to which it relates. If we could review our own feedback then surely we can take it upon ourselves to improve?

I understand there will be some people who won’t want to see their negative feedback so perhaps an opt-out feature could be installed where the member won’t automatically be able to see their feedback unless it was given to them by the vatsim uk team? (As is the current process now aiui) 

TYKR. 

 

Edited by Alex Hodgkinson
Formatting.
  • Like 6
Link to post
Alex Hodgkinson
8 minutes ago, Harry Sugden said:

Yes!

57 people were in support of something like this before.

 

That was the thread I couldn’t find. Thanks Harry. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Gary Oliver

Just out of interest what %age of feedback left is passed on to the controller with this current, horrifically manual process?

Surely it’s not outside the realms of our great web teams skill to show us the ratings and comments field for any feedback previously left. 

I mean they did write entire AFV alpha test site overnight, I’m sure this would be a nice fun task for them.

cheers

G

 

Link to post
Trevor Hannant
2 hours ago, Gary Oliver said:

Just out of interest what %age of feedback left is passed on to the controller with this current, horrifically manual process?

Surely it’s not outside the realms of our great web teams skill to show us the ratings and comments field for any feedback previously left. 

I mean they did write entire AFV alpha test site overnight, I’m sure this would be a nice fun task for them.

cheers

G

 

Calling @Callum Axon...  ?

Link to post
Stuart Duncan

If this were to be implemented, it's vital that the details of the person submitting negative feedback are viewable by the recipient. This would prevent the submission of bogus feedback and prevent insincere submissions protected by the veil of anonymity. 

Personally, I think the whole "We love feedback" thing stinks of desperation and should be scrapped. If you're generally craving reassurance and attention, you should consult your mother in the first instance.

 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Harry Sugden
7 minutes ago, Stuart Duncan said:

Personally, I think the whole "We love feedback" thing stinks of desperation and should be scrapped. If you're generally craving reassurance and attention, you should consult your mother in the first instance.

That's one way to read it. Or one could read it as '"We love feedback" that helps make our controlling/service better'? Whether it does that is another question...

  • Like 4
Link to post
Trevor Hannant
1 minute ago, Harry Sugden said:

Whether it does that is another question...

Well it won't if it's not passed on...

Link to post
Stuart Duncan
11 minutes ago, Harry Sugden said:

(That said, I might change it to "Submit feedback:", as it does sound a little more professional ?)

It does.

Also, automation would be a necessity as it's sure to get saturated with pedantry; if it isn't already.

Link to post
Fraser Cooper

All feedback should record who left it, unless the user submitting the feedback clicks ‘leave feedback anonymously ’ 

Edited by Fraser Cooper
  • Like 2
Link to post
Calum Towers

I am unsure what the right balance is if I am totally honest, so watching this thread with interest in the hope to see a constructive discussion. Anything and everything helps the Web Team to form some plans if the desire to implement them becomes apparent.

I think it’s important that we understand why we collect feedback. Are we passing that to member for them to review? Are we trying to spot trends to shape our training? Both? Do each of those aims need different approaches to be met?

I have, and always will, advocate for as much automation as possible so that members can focus on enjoying the network (rather than sitting in spreadsheets). We’re fortunate enough to have the ability within the Division to facilitate that on a technical level.

Link to post
Richard Keen
13 hours ago, Alex Hodgkinson said:

Morning.

Would it be possible for individual members to see all their feedback that has been written against them? Both positive and negative? 

Reason? I believe there is a significant amount of feedback that’s not being seen by the membership probably because no-doubt each piece of feedback needs individually actioning by an individual to then be seen by the member to which it relates. If we could review our own feedback then surely we can take it upon ourselves to improve?

I understand there will be some people who won’t want to see their negative feedback so perhaps an opt-out feature could be installed where the member won’t automatically be able to see their feedback unless it was given to them by the vatsim uk team? (As is the current process now aiui) 

TYKR. 

 

Im too scared to even look at mine

Link to post
Adam Arkley
8 hours ago, Calum Towers said:

I am unsure what the right balance is if I am totally honest, so watching this thread with interest in the hope to see a constructive discussion. Anything and everything helps the Web Team to form some plans if the desire to implement them becomes apparent.

I think it’s important that we understand why we collect feedback. Are we passing that to member for them to review? Are we trying to spot trends to shape our training? Both? Do each of those aims need different approaches to be met?

I have, and always will, advocate for as much automation as possible so that members can focus on enjoying the network (rather than sitting in spreadsheets). We’re fortunate enough to have the ability within the Division to facilitate that on a technical level.

It isn't about balance, Calum, it's about transparency and we don't have any. I'm a C3, I don't get trained, it's nigh on impossible for VATSIM to take my rating away from me b rules they set down themselves so exactly what are people able to leave feedback about me? I have one negative feedback item on display in the dashboard, I have no idea who left it, I think it's garbage and an inaccurate reflection of the situation and nobody actually came and consulted with me about it, it just appeared one day. Have I learnt anything from that? No. Was the feedback useful? No. Do I think that if I left feedback about a controller who I've received a dire service from that it would be actioned appropriately? No, because the network is too afraid to give bad news to people. 

For years we've been totally unable to say 'no' to anyone about anything. Feedback would be useful if it actually allowed us to paint a picture to turn around to a controller and say "here, we've received 15 bits of feedback in the last month about your ability to sequence traffic, you require remedial training, please do not log onto this position again until you've received it. Seeing as we can't do that, you ask a good question. Why are we collecting feedback? To stroke egos, and that is all. 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Alex Hodgkinson
8 hours ago, Richard Keen said:

Im too scared to even look at mine

Don’t be silly Richard! Us ‘old salts’ always know what we are doing! ?

8 hours ago, Calum Towers said:

I think it’s important that we understand why we collect feedback. Are we passing that to member for them to review? Are we trying to spot trends to shape our training? Both? Do each of those aims need different approaches to be met?

I look at the whole feedback issue this way. In my job I have two appraisals a year. The ‘mid period’ appraisal is a feedback exchange. My and my line manager discuss my personal objectives, how I work as an individual and how I work as a team. We then discuss my objectives and what I need to do to improve. Then, at the ‘end of year’ appraisal I get a formal written report about me that is kept for the length of my career. 
 

if I didn’t have this mid period appraisal, how would I know what to work on and what I was doing well? I’d have to them wait until the end of the year to be told ‘yeah you’re not good at this, you should be better’ 

A transparent and effective feedback system allows trainees (I.e individuals) to develop their own ways of improvement and also receive praise (which is so very important in a training environment) in order to inspire and encourage repeat good performances. Secondly, The same feedback can (and should) be used to shape the training requirements of the division, but that required people leaving feedback. 
 

All the feedback I’ve left about people, both positive and negative, as far a I’m aware is probably just sat in a big list and not been viewed by anybody. I’ve never, ever received an email saying ‘your feedback has been passed.’ 
 

Furthermore, since the feedback forms inception, I’ve apparently (according to core) never received any feedback. I know this is not true as someone has spoken to me says ‘did you receive this feedback?’ 
 

TL:DR - I would encourage a feedback system that is viewable by the individual concerned regardless of the type of feedback, rather than it being kept on a list for nobody to view. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Calum Towers
1 hour ago, Adam Arkley said:

It isn't about balance, Calum, it's about transparency and we don't have any. I'm a C3, I don't get trained, it's nigh on impossible for VATSIM to take my rating away from me b rules they set down themselves so exactly what are people able to leave feedback about me? I have one negative feedback item on display in the dashboard, I have no idea who left it, I think it's garbage and an inaccurate reflection of the situation and nobody actually came and consulted with me about it, it just appeared one day. Have I learnt anything from that? No. Was the feedback useful? No. Do I think that if I left feedback about a controller who I've received a dire service from that it would be actioned appropriately? No, because the network is too afraid to give bad news to people. 

For years we've been totally unable to say 'no' to anyone about anything. Feedback would be useful if it actually allowed us to paint a picture to turn around to a controller and say "here, we've received 15 bits of feedback in the last month about your ability to sequence traffic, you require remedial training, please do not log onto this position again until you've received it. Seeing as we can't do that, you ask a good question. Why are we collecting feedback? To stroke egos, and that is all. 

If I am understanding correctly, I think we are of the same mindset.
The top and bottom of it is if we are collecting feedback we need to do something meaningful with it.

If that is passing it directly to members (to be transparent as you mentioned), great.
If that is collating it and spotting trends to then provide remedial training/advice to people (as you say, we can't stop them ignoring us and logging on if they have a rating), great.
If that is something totally different, fine!
If we are doing nothing - why is it available?

My reference to balance is if we do the first approach (sending directly to members, totally automated, no oversight) then I think we risk;

  1. Just replicating a messaging system - why leave feedback through a form when you could just message someone for the same result?
  2. Missing an opportunity to drive improvement in our training - and not just rating progression, but remedial or top-up training where people want it too

I don't disagree that feedback left about an individual should be visible to that person, but I do think that needs to be part of a wider plan for how we action that feedback to do something bigger and more meaningful with it.

We have a number of ways that the team can engage with members about their feedback.
If we need to change or adapt those methods, we absolutely can, and I think this thread will start to form some of the ideas of how we can do that.

Link to post
Loui Ringer

Some good points being raised on this thread.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that in most cases of negative feedback (well from what I’ve just gone through), it is pretty easy for the controller in question to work out who has submitted the feedback about them. Whilst I’m not saying that everyone would go chasing the submitters, it has happened in the past. 
 

If controllers starting chasing pilots on what feedback was left about them, we run the risk of them never using it again.

Link to post
Tom Earl
2 hours ago, Loui Ringer said:

Some good points being raised on this thread.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that in most cases of negative feedback (well from what I’ve just gone through), it is pretty easy for the controller in question to work out who has submitted the feedback about them. Whilst I’m not saying that everyone would go chasing the submitters, it has happened in the past. 
 

If controllers starting chasing pilots on what feedback was left about them, we run the risk of them never using it again.

I think Stu covers this scenario appropriately:

On 12/05/2020 at 12:09, Stuart Duncan said:

If this were to be implemented, it's vital that the details of the person submitting negative feedback are viewable by the recipient. This would prevent the submission of bogus feedback and prevent insincere submissions protected by the veil of anonymity. 

If people are prepared to leave negative feedback, then they should also be prepared to disclose who they are. This would hopefully remove the purely derogatory comments that come along with anonymity.

It's certainly worth thinking about this from a completely macro level. Once we establish what the overall goals are for feedback, the processes become a lot clearer. For example, I know Marketing are now using feedback to help gauge rostering events. The trouble with this is the rate at which negative feedback is left compared to positive.

I certainly think positive feedback could be communicated further than it currently is though, perhaps through public channels - celebrating our fantastic controllers and level of quality/realism we offer.

Link to post
Adam Turner
2 hours ago, Loui Ringer said:

Whilst I’m not saying that everyone would go chasing the submitters, it has happened in the past. 

This happened to me when I left feedback regarding a fellow controller (whilst also controlling). 

I don't see the point of giving feedback if some controllers are resistant to receiving and acting upon it, instead taking as a personal matter with something to "sort out". I gave the feedback in order to highlight to this controller an issue that I know I haven't been the only one to experience, and hopefully to encourage them to work to rectify it to improve their controlling -- not to attack them personally!

If all that recipients of feedback do is deflect and defend rather than reflect and improve, then it seems to me that the feedback system is, as Adam said, merely a tool with which to stroke egos.

Link to post
Adam Arkley

We're getting dragged into the minutiae of 'how' without considering 'why'.

Why does the division want to collate feedback? Determining the answer to that will determine how it might or might not be collated, cultivated and distributed. Any other discussions around the 'how' are redundant until this question is answered. 

  • Like 3
Link to post

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
  • Similar Content

    • Harry Sugden
      By Harry Sugden
      Unfortunately, I have now had enough. I have tried so hard over the last 5 months to pursue other avenues. This forum post is genuinely the last thing I wanted to write on a network that is built by and sustained by volunteers. But at the top of VATSIM UK and above it, it is clear that it is nigh on impossible to get anyone to care. Perhaps it is just me? Nope, I know - and I’m not asking you to speak up publicly, I’m happy to do it - that there are others who are fed up of being ignored.
      From the moment a new Division Director was appointed in the UK, I was waiting for an Operations vacancy to open up. I was actually the first Operations Manager (it was called then), before losing interest in VATSIM as I moved on to University. I was excited to come back and contribute in something that I know I’m good at, so as soon as lockdown began, I enquired as to the plan. There wasn’t one. As you may have noticed, I’ve been back for a while and I just can’t get enough.
      The thing that’s missing though is an Operations department to thrive. Our previous Division Director has told me that they had enough to do in that role alone. Being a leader is about delegating. It is about encouraging people to contribute, the glue that holds the division together strategically and into the future. But where is ours? A leader doesn’t hog, on a volunteer network. A leader doesn’t keep an I3 badge when they don’t have time to instruct. A leader says hello sooner than 3 weeks after their appointment. A leader involves themselves in events and day-to-day division life. But how does our current one manage 4 roles at once (5 if you include the DDD!)? 
      I don’t think they can. My tickets, emails and PMs are invariably ignored, responded to months later - sometimes Slack even archived them before they were replied to! Myself and others have waited weeks and weeks to even be given approval to start on a new document. We contributors often wait until the night before AIRAC release to have our Pull Requests reviewed for the sector file, leaving no time to make changes in time for release. I struggle to receive even an acknowledgement that a document has been received and is in the queue for review.
      I genuinely love Ops and this division. I’ve tried putting my absolute all into document creation, Spotlight posts, the like, with absolutely no reward other than the odd thanks. That’s fine - I don’t want a reward. But when I offer to help more formally, it falls on deaf ears. An email where I, in effect, formally complained got a response just under 4 weeks after I sent it. I was reassured by the Region Director that Ops would be appointed ‘soon’ - this was now over a month ago. An email I received nearly 4 weeks ago from the DD promised a more regular line of communication to discuss procedures and documents. I replied within days saying that sounded like a great idea! Guess what... no reply since! 
      Yet, I receive a review on a pull request, 3 months after it was submitted, last night?!

       
      Let’s wrap this up. Active suppression of volunteerism is what this division is now about apparently. Not everywhere, of course. All staff - including the DD - put their all into this place. Training, Web, Marketing and Member Servcies should all be applauded for what they do - at times we all disagree with things, but they are volunteers who quite frankly deserve more praise.
      But our DD doesn’t recognise when it’s time to let others help. I’ve sent my blueprint for Ops to them, because I have ideas to get YOU involved - the airfield info update project, which I’ve just started without ‘approval’, is the first of them. I don’t even want to be on the DSG (powerless ‘Manager’ would be fine), and I wouldn’t even mind if someone else got Ops Director... as long as it meant I could get a reply from them! 
      This isn’t what the network is about. I’m tired of 5 months of offering to help, of waiting. It shouldn’t be like this, and I’ve tried so hard via the UK and Europe. I’ve run out of steam. And so I wanted you to know about it.
       
      (P.S. If I’ve blown my chances of being ‘respected’ by the ‘old boys club’ management, then of course I’m sad, but not surprised. I love this network and have only ever tried to help. May this be my last attempt!)
    • Yakov Dlougach
      By Yakov Dlougach
      Real-world EGLL AIP does not explicitly prohibit fixed-wing VFR traffic:
       However here on VATSIM VFR in the Inner zone is only allowed for helicopters. Any reasons for that?
    • Stuart Duncan
      By Stuart Duncan
      Morning!
      Everyone knows internet forums were invented by the Romans in the year 23BC.  Fast forward a couple of millenia and we're still using them to this day; or are we?
      Back in the day, we used to sign on to www.vatsim-uk.org/forums which through domain changes, a community emphesis and the like became what we know and love today - community.vatsim.uk.
      I'm aware the Division uses slack and have done so for quite some time.  However, I'm notincing of late more and more emphasis on and reliance of the use of Slack.
      I believe this is to the detriment of the esprit de corps of the community. Firstly, I, and many others don't use Slack, so the potential exists for information and discussion to be missed.  Secondly, I get the impression that the balance of community discussion is shifting towards Slack, leaving this very forum less active with less content and potential delegation to the position of Slack's poorer cousin.  Like I say, I'm not on Slack so potentially my impression could be wide of the mark.
      I guess what I'm saying is please can we look at the possibility of promoting the forum as the 1st port of call for community discussion and leave Slack as more of project management/task allocation platform?
      Cheers,
      S.
    • Richard Keen
      By Richard Keen
      Hi all
       
      Just like to say well done to all the controllers tonight for another fantastic Mid Week Gatwick event, really enjoyed the short flight from EGHQ .... although I did scare the TMA controller who thought I was holding wrong when infact the Aerosoft A330 flew it correctly which was  parallel entry into the hold. They must have improved the Holds in the latest patch lol ....can't wait till the next event.
      Thanks again all roll on the next one
      Rich

    • Joe Dobson
      By Joe Dobson
      Posting this as I can't use the feedback form (requires individual CID and the controllers are all offline now).
       
      Thanks for a great event. Special thanks to EGPH and EGCC controllers, MAN and Scottish Control North of Edinburgh. Bounced around EGCC, EGPH and EGPE in a KA350 and it was very good fun.
×
×
  • Create New...