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James Yuen

atc-training Gatwick Delivery, please watch out for:....

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James Yuen

Speaking as a (newly solo-endorsed) AC South controller:

- I am not too fussed with aircraft on a SAM instead of a NOVMA, CLN instead of a FRANE, DVR instead of an ADMAG/ODVIK since they generally head in the same direction.

- We'd like to ask those who do EGKK a lot, to please check flight plans more than just the SID. If you're unsure, please ask. A few things which I've seen over the past few weeks:

  • Flights to EHAM being cleared on ADMAG
  • Flights routing South (towards Paris/Barcelona/Spain etc.) being cleared via ADMAG then direct to the South Boundary, where it should be BOGNA (26L) and SFD (08R)
  • Departures cleared on SFD off 26L
  • Scratchpads left in after departure

We're lucky enough in that usually, GND controllers will have a TWR/APP above them. Please ask, and they can often check the route for you. We understand mistakes can be made, and I will always point these out to the GND controllers. Take it as a learning curve, and pass the knowledge down to anyone else who makes the mistake.

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Lenny Colton
7 hours ago, James Yuen said:

please check flight plans

Another few are aircraft who make it to the holding point whilst cleared for:

  • A BIG departure to an airport other than LL or WU (LAM is usually the best replacement, sometimes CLN/FRANE).
  • TIGER, DAGGA, or WIZAD departures without prior instructions from LON or notification (Please replace with a non-relief SID).
  • The wrong runway end (Please make sure they haven't filed an incorrect SID which then confuses EuroScope).
  • The north runway (See the above point).
  • Departure without a SID, without prior notification of a non-standard departure (It's confusing and TWR then ends up having the same discussion with APP that whoever got the clearance had).
  • A departure via KENET (NOVMA/IMVUR then KENET also count), when they are not going to Southwest England or Ireland (LAM is usually the best reroute for transatlantic flights).

Please check flight plans carefully for errors (not following standard procedure, airways flown backwards, incorrect airway endpoints, incorrect altitude, etc.) or omissions (unnecessary DCTs, etc.).

It makes everyone's life easier if the aircraft is still at the gate and not at the holding point, on the runway, or in the air when this happens. 🙂

Edited by Lenny Colton

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Russ Wragg

Gatwick is "Flightplan Correction Simulator"

I get that it's easy to point the finger at the GND/DEL controllers and flog them but I believe that it's likely the controllers were endorsed without fully understanding the SIDs and it's important to isolate who these people are and re-train where necessary, and perhaps flog the person issuing the endorsement. A blanket "catch-all" announcement never works.

I'll be first to admit that I miss a level or two when it's busy or the odd re-route slips through with a dog-leg at the end of the SID in ES, no-one is perfect, but some of this stuff is really basic. Also just putting "KK please check departures"in ATC chat is not helping anyone, all it's doing is publicly shaming the GND & DEL controllers for missing issues and not saying what the problem is.

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Lenny Colton
1 minute ago, Russ Wragg said:

flog the person issuing the endorsement.

@Kye Taylor 😉😉

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Kye Taylor
1 hour ago, Lenny Colton said:

@Kye Taylor 😉😉

Interesting Lenny, considering I’ve only passed one student witch was during my OTS. 🤷‍♂️

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Oliver Parker

To say to that the students that are fresh out of mentoring are issuing incorrect SIDs or not checking routes well enough is evidence that the training is not suitable. 

If controllers who ‘control LGW a lot’ aren’t capable of issuing appropriate departures then is that not a failure of the most basic of tasks?

@Louie Lister I was a mentor for a considerable amount of time a few years ago (perhaps even before you joined the network) so I’m not new to the training system and whereabouts there are shortcomings. This is something that can be solved and should be.

I’d argue that posts like this won’t solve the problem because we have seen a number of them in the last year or two at least. This needs to be addressed at the very earliest stage in the training process.

 I stand by my previous comment which has been moderated and subsequently removed. 

Edited by Oliver Parker

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Russ Wragg

What I really meant by “flog” is to identify which controller has which retraining need and take the time to pass it on to the mentor who endorsed them privately via the feedback system, (or if it’s a more general issue with a few controllers raise it directly with someone at the training department).


Highlighting issues with the mentor not only gives that mentor a chance to identify potential problems that need covering more heavily in their future mentoring sessions it would allow a familiar face to give feedback to their student in a nice post-endorsement chit-chat kinda way .. a sort of “hows it going” follow up chat. I wouldn’t have minded if this happened after my endorsement.. doing it this way would also give the student a chance to ask their mentor any questions after a few solo controlling sessions and not having to ask someone else (or here) and finger pointing the mentor for not training them properly. (Perhaps they are too embarrassed to ask questions and show their ignorance, so they are bumbling through)

However, if students get bombarded by lots of different AC controllers having a  go at them for lots of different issues directly or in ATC chat it’s not going to end well and the student may give up controlling.. or choose who they now control beneath!!

I wonder how many of the KK GND controllers will be wondering if this thread is aimed at them!

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George Peppard

I think it’s very clear here that this post isn’t designed to have a dig at any controllers despite what some comments may suggest...

VATSIM is a learning experience - we aren’t training people to the level of NATS (or indeed ANS in this case I suppose) and therefore don’t expect everyone to be perfect.

All James is asking (and I agree) is that members who make innocent mistakes like these are politely informed of the correct way to resolve them - no flogging necessary...

If these issues then continue then they can be raised privately to relevant members of department staff (i.e. TGIs)

ATC chat is also not the place to resolve aerodrome specific SID issues.

Edited by George Peppard

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Adam Arkley

Hello works, I represent the proverbial spanner. 

It's a long accepted fact it VATSIM that you cannot force a pilot to alter their route. If I want to fly from Gatwick to Amsterdam via Dublin then I'm more than welcome to. To that end, my understanding - although this is not necessarily a view I endorse and I am happy to be corrected - is that we are not permitted to mandate that a pilot fly a specific SID. They can fly what they like, so far as I know. 

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Adam Arkley
4 minutes ago, Russ Wragg said:

@Adam Arkley If that’s true then you can’t make me fly a SID twice. 🤣

Challenge accepted 

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Darren Hill

As a TWR on KK when GND/DEL is below me, it is often rather busy. Bit difficult to replace SIDs etc. at the hold 😂. But I do agree, KK more than any other airport is full of flightplan amendments!

Edited by Darren Hill

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Lenny Colton
1 hour ago, Darren Hill said:

As a TWR on KK when GND/DEL is below me, it is often rather busy. Bit difficult to replace SIDs etc. at the hold 😂. But I do agree, KK more than any other airport is full of flightplan amendments!

At the end of the day, the best place for amendments to happen is at the gate.

If, as GND/DEL (or even TWR), you're not sure about a route alteration, ask someone. If they don't know, ask someone else.

Someone will have the answer, whether it be another controller, or Google.

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Richard Keen

Firstly everyone makes mistakes ...even me and i have been on the net work for years , its how you learn from them that matters ....i have had to alter a few FP routes and help a few GND/DEL controllers in the past to find routes for them etc when working Director ...the thing i notice nowadays is as soon as you pass an exam you can apply to become a mentor (even thou you are still learning and dont have much solo time) this could be where the issue is in that some are not as experianced as others and its sadly being passed on to students who in turn are making the mistakes as outlined above.

   My own view is there should be some time frame added from when you pass and when you can become a mentor (done via hours or months etc), the down side is some one can just log on at a not to busy time ranking up the hours, the old way of the RTSMs selecting thier mentors based on experience was far better. 

Edited by Richard Keen

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George Peppard
2 hours ago, Richard Keen said:

as soon as you pass an exam you can apply to become a mentor

It's at the discretion of TG staff but most mentors are asked to consolidate their rating or validation before we grant rights to mentor position(s).

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Adam Farquharson

I would just like to add that as much as this posts is titled Gatwick, this isn't a Gatwick specific issue. If anything I see incorrect flightplans at other aerodromes more as they don't get taught the routes during endorsement training. Either way my understanding is TGNC are already aware that a lot of new s1's aren't great with re-routes and I think they working on a change to the training process to fix that. Someone else might be able to confirm that though.

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Richard Keen

During the early stages of the sessions i used to link the Students to the NATs Airway charts for the South of England and jot dont some of the more common re routes so they would have the info for next time or they could learn them at thier leasure, also during less busy times but with a some flight plans files filed i would recommend they  look over the FPs for errors so they can be ready for them .. common ones were flight level errors like higher then FL230 to EHAM and re routes for SFDs off 26L during the day .

Rich

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Louie Lister
On 26/11/2019 at 09:01, James Yuen said:
  • Scratchpads left in after departure

Is this in reference to you covering top-down with ground online? or you logging onto London and finding KK deps airborne with stuff in the scratchpad with only ground online? 

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Fergus Walsh

I'm not going to be in denial - I have noticed these things too. It sounds a bit 'tacky' but we are already working on things to make the Gatwick Endorsement clearer to students and mentors alike to make sure that there are no discrepancies. 

Fergal

 

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