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Craig Watt

feedback Supervisor Warning

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Craig Watt

Hi Guys, I had an issue yesterday on vatsim, I was doing the event in the LEIB closing parties for. EGKK to LEIB. I have recently just installed new hardware.(upgrades rudder pedals to be precise) however just after take off my computer took a panic attack and all my programs crash. In which I had no other way but to ctl alt delete and shut computer down through task manager as the pc was completely locked out. For whatever reason during this and even though my computer had completely shut down my vpilot didn’t disconnect from the network. There was literally nothing I could do. I have re installed the hardware and cured the problem and are under the opinion this was the issue as never before have I had it before. I reloaded my pc and it opened with no programmes showing as open. However to my surprise today I have a warning in my emails from a sup instead of asking me for an explanation in red writing in breach of code of conduct. If he had have asked me 1st I could have gave him that explanation. This occurred just after take off and I was in contact with the tower. I am all about the supervisors contacting me. To get an email just jumping to not even investigate has really annoyed me. I have flew a considerable umber of flights on vatsim since I started a couple of months back with absolutely  no issues. Seems like genuine circumstances aren’t considered, you are just guessed to have gone away without permission. I absolutely respect the code of conduct and every pilot, so if I was in your way yesterday again had no control and because my pc had to be shut down I thought clearly it would have disconnected me form vpilot so apologies if that was the case. Though as you can probably tell I am Not pleased about the warning. Maybe sups going forward when they have issue is to ask 1st of all the issue. The computer crash was a disaster for me too. Everyone who flies on here knows, you don’t set up a flight and waste all that time in the pre flight getting everything perfect to not fly your flight. The sup says he tried to connect me through vpilot but again due to the situation I didn’t get any messages! 

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Lenny Colton
33 minutes ago, Craig Watt said:

Hi Guys, I had an issue yesterday on vatsim, I was doing the event in the LEIB closing parties for. EGKK to LEIB. I have recently just installed new hardware.(upgrades rudder pedals to be precise) however just after take off my computer took a panic attack and all my programs crash. In which I had no other way but to ctl alt delete and shut computer down through task manager as the pc was completely locked out. For whatever reason during this and even though my computer had completely shut down my vpilot didn’t disconnect from the network. There was literally nothing I could do. I have re installed the hardware and cured the problem and are under the opinion this was the issue as never before have I had it before. I reloaded my pc and it opened with no programmes showing as open. However to my surprise today I have a warning in my emails from a sup instead of asking me for an explanation in red writing in breach of code of conduct. If he had have asked me 1st I could have gave him that explanation. This occurred just after take off and I was in contact with the tower. I am all about the supervisors contacting me. To get an email just jumping to not even investigate has really annoyed me. I have flew a considerable umber of flights on vatsim since I started a couple of months back with absolutely  no issues. Seems like genuine circumstances aren’t considered, you are just guessed to have gone away without permission. I absolutely respect the code of conduct and every pilot, so if I was in your way yesterday again had no control and because my pc had to be shut down I thought clearly it would have disconnected me form vpilot so apologies if that was the case. Though as you can probably tell I am Not pleased about the warning. Maybe sups going forward when they have issue is to ask 1st of all the issue. The computer crash was a disaster for me too. Everyone who flies on here knows, you don’t set up a flight and waste all that time in the pre flight getting everything perfect to not fly your flight. The sup says he tried to connect me through vpilot but again due to the situation I didn’t get any messages! 

Why don't you explain what happened? Most dual connection or prolonged unattended connection issues are due to laziness or disregars for rules. For this reason, a hard line is often taken. If you explain what happened to the sup in question then there shouldn't be an issue.

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Craig Watt
20 minutes ago, Lenny Colton said:

Why don't you explain what happened? Most dual connection or prolonged unattended connection issues are due to laziness or disregars for rules. For this reason, a hard line is often taken. If you explain what happened to the sup in question then there shouldn't be an issue.

I am not overalls technical with hardware, I know basics but that’s me being honest. I absolutely agree with a hard line being taken aswell, though My point is if he believes there should be a warning then why give me a warning before asking my side of the story. Again this was just after I had positive rate rate of climb. My flaps where still at flaps 1..I didn’t leave the similulator. If he has my email address he could have asked me for an explanation. In my view it’s reasonable as there was nothing I could do. I am not for explaining myself anymore. This is the situation. I left this under feedback so SUPs  can get feedback on how better to deal with a problem instead of just assuming I left the cockpit. I don’t accept a warning as it was out of my control. it’s not like I got a ban. Though I feel aggrieved not to be able to explain myself, after if he/she didn’t accept my explanation then ok, but it was certain not deliberate like it’s been put across by the vatsim sup. 

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Trevor Hannant

if you feel the warning or the text of the warning was unduly harsh given the circumstances, then I'd recommend forwarding the email with an account of your issue to the following email address:

vpsup@vatsim.net

Out of curiosity, how long were you offline for after you had to restart your PC? 

Regarding replying to Supervisor emails, I get replies to many of mine when I've removed someone from the network for an inactive connection.  I always listen to what they have to say and just re-iterate it's not a ban, nor really a warning but a heads up.

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Craig Watt
2 hours ago, Trevor Hannant said:

if you feel the warning or the text of the warning was unduly harsh given the circumstances, then I'd recommend forwarding the email with an account of your issue to the following email address:

vpsup@vatsim.net

Out of curiosity, how long were you offline for after you had to restart your PC? 

Regarding replying to Supervisor emails, I get replies to many of mine when I've removed someone from the network for an inactive connection.  I always listen to what they have to say and just re-iterate it's not a ban, nor really a warning but a heads up.

Hi Trevor thanks for your time. It was literally just after take off my computer froze. I was about to report airborne to hell controller I had literally just read back take off clearance 20 seconds before hand and my whole computer froze. The only way to unlock it was the force closedown of all my apps which where running and restart the pc. When I say force close down I had to ctl +alt+del and click on each one and end task then restarted the pc as anyone would do. How I remained connected I have no idea but I certainly didn’t leave the controller which the sup suggested in which I had an email warning with bright red articles of the code of conduct. From my end my prepar3d was closed along with vpilot. 

I told the sup at the start to send it to VP but I have since emailed and said I can’t be bothered with the hassle of explaining myself again for something that I had no control over.

It’s no fun when you get warnings for something you feel is harsh. 

During the climb you have to be there to be there to change the MCP until you get to your cruise level. I would like to see my flight path from this. That is not the time as everyone who flies on vatsim knows not to get up and leave the controller. I bet my flight was stuck at 5000ft to follow the SID because that’s what it I was going to initially climb too before the Computer crash. 

I am not going to have a sup tell me I was away from the controller when that is so far away from what happened. I wasn’t exactly happy or pleased when my PC crashed after all the work that I had just done to set up the flight. 

For the record I wouldn’t ever disrespect anyone and ruin anyone’s flight intentionally. 

Re the sup I told him since he didn’t take my version of events into account I would be posting on the forum, this is filed under feedback as I don’t feel he went the right way about it and vatsim asks for feedback and hope to suggest how better to deal with it. This is my 1st issue on vatsim with a sup So didn’t know if it was normal procedure for the sup to not wait to speak to someone 1st before delivering a warning via email. 

The sups in future should email the user and wait for a reply before deciding on which action to take. If he spoke to me and listened to my side of the story and then decided it still warranted a warning then fair enough, atleast he would have heard what I had to say. 

 

To be fair its it’s not a big massive deal but if for eg I decided to be a sup or volunteer on vatsim that is against my name and goes against criteria. 

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Craig Watt
2 hours ago, Trevor Hannant said:

if you feel the warning or the text of the warning was unduly harsh given the circumstances, then I'd recommend forwarding the email with an account of your issue to the following email address:

vpsup@vatsim.net

Out of curiosity, how long were you offline for after you had to restart your PC? 

Regarding replying to Supervisor emails, I get replies to many of mine when I've removed someone from the network for an inactive connection.  I always listen to what they have to say and just re-iterate it's not a ban, nor really a warning but a heads up.

Trevor once I restarted the machine I didn’t load prepar3d again or vpilot. I didn’t feel like all the set up again. I restarted the computer and reinstalled hardware then turned pc off again. It was only this morning when I was going through my mails I noticed I had an email. 

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Trevor Hannant

Craig, posting it here won't make any difference though, it needs to be handled in the correct channel which is via the email address above as the VP Supervisors won't see it here.  If there's a training need within the Supervisor pool then that can only be done with direct contact with one of the Sup team leaders. 

Emails are issued after a pilot/controller is disconnected from the network by a SUP.   Generally speaking the process is:

- Supervisor makes contact via PM on network
- Repeated messages sent via PM over a 30+ minute period
- If no contact received, pilot/controller is disconnected after 30 mins (unless in busy airspace where they are "getting in the way" then it can be done before then)
- Email is sent by Supervisor to pilot/controller advising of the disconnect and why

If you feel the wording and highlighting in different colours of the email text needs to be addressed (note, individual SUPs can change/format the text to their own preference), then again, this is something that needs to be raised via the correct route so that it can addressed and disseminated appropriately.  The overwhelming majority of SUPs are not from the UK and certainly not registered in this forum so they won't see it.  Remember that the Supervisor function is a VATSIM.net one, not a VATSIM UK one.

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Craig Watt
3 minutes ago, Trevor Hannant said:

Craig, posting it here won't make any difference though, it needs to be handled in the correct channel which is via the email address above as the VP Supervisors won't see it here.  If there's a training need within the Supervisor pool then that can only be done with direct contact with one of the Sup team leaders. 

Emails are issued after a pilot/controller is disconnected from the network by a SUP.   Generally speaking the process is:

- Supervisor makes contact via PM on network
- Repeated messages sent via PM over a 30+ minute period
- If no contact received, pilot/controller is disconnected after 30 mins (unless in busy airspace where they are "getting in the way" then it can be done before then)
- Email is sent by Supervisor to pilot/controller advising of the disconnect and why

If you feel the wording and highlighting in different colours of the email text needs to be addressed (note, individual SUPs can change/format the text to their own preference), then again, this is something that needs to be raised via the correct route so that it can addressed and disseminated appropriately.  The overwhelming majority of SUPs are not from the UK and certainly not registered in this forum so they won't see it.  Remember that the Supervisor function is a VATSIM.net one, not a VATSIM UK one.

 

My point is Trevor all the sups need to do is email the pilot in question, and simply ask was there any reason why you were unresponsive, if they haven’t got an answer in which they are satisfied then proceed to punish against the code. It Shouldn’t be that in my view they need trained in the matter it should be a basic knowledge of facts. It’s a role of a sup to find out the problem. He didn’t know what my isssue was until after he had already gave me wrap across the knuckles! 

 

12 minutes ago, Trevor Hannant said:

Craig, posting it here won't make any difference though, it needs to be handled in the correct channel which is via the email address above as the VP Supervisors won't see it here.  If there's a training need within the Supervisor pool then that can only be done with direct contact with one of the Sup team leaders. 

Emails are issued after a pilot/controller is disconnected from the network by a SUP.   Generally speaking the process is:

- Supervisor makes contact via PM on network
- Repeated messages sent via PM over a 30+ minute period
- If no contact received, pilot/controller is disconnected after 30 mins (unless in busy airspace where they are "getting in the way" then it can be done before then)
- Email is sent by Supervisor to pilot/controller advising of the disconnect and why

If you feel the wording and highlighting in different colours of the email text needs to be addressed (note, individual SUPs can change/format the text to their own preference), then again, this is something that needs to be raised via the correct route so that it can addressed and disseminated appropriately.  The overwhelming majority of SUPs are not from the UK and certainly not registered in this forum so they won't see it.  Remember that the Supervisor function is a VATSIM.net one, not a VATSIM UK one.

Though I take your point if this is the wrong place forum 👍

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Matthew Wilson

 Hi Craig

 

Speaking as a supervisor Trevor is correct in what he says. We will give a pilot quite a lot of leniency before disconnecting them from the network. We'll send at least 2 messages to the pilot before removing them.  Sending an email before we disconnect somebody is not really going to solve the issue, because we don't know if the email has been received, nor do we know if the pilot is going to look at their emails in the period anyway. I also find it difficult to believe that Vpilot was still running while the PC was off. This is for several reasons. Vpilot can only run if it is connected to a flight sim. If the flight sim crashes or is closed then Vpilot will automatically disconnect. Also Vpilot needs an internet connection to run which would also not happen if the PC is off. We can only disconnect somebody who is actively connected to the network. I can only assume you were still connected to the network, with your PC on and your flight sim running.

Unfortunately, we do not know the individual circumstances of a pilot. We can only go with the circumstances presented at the time and so we have to treat each pilot the same way. Also as Trevor says, this is not really going to affect your standings within the division or affect you as far as future roles is concerned. People are really bothered about suspensions and not being disconnected for inactivity.

 

Regarsd

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Simon Kelsey
On 11/10/2018 at 13:46, Matthew Wilson said:

I also find it difficult to believe that Vpilot was still running while the PC was off. This is for several reasons. Vpilot can only run if it is connected to a flight sim. If the flight sim crashes or is closed then Vpilot will automatically disconnect. Also Vpilot needs an internet connection to run which would also not happen if the PC is off. We can only disconnect somebody who is actively connected to the network. I can only assume you were still connected to the network, with your PC on and your flight sim running.

For what it's worth, this is the second time that I've seen an almost identical story (FS crashed and PC rebooted but some time later user gets an email informing them they've been kicked for inactivity).

So although on the face of it what you say is correct, I'm starting to think that it's not beyond the realm of possibility that in some circumstances the network might not 'time out' inactive connections properly and thus people may appear to be connected when they may in fact not be.

I imagine this is going to be very difficult to reproduce or track down but perhaps worthy of some further investigation by the network people at some point and something for supervisors to have in mind as a possibility?

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Lewis Hardcastle

At least your headset doesn't kamikaze your plane when you dock it.

Edited by Nathan Donnelly
MOD #1175

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Neil Stewart
7 hours ago, Simon Kelsey said:

For what it's worth, this is the second time that I've seen an almost identical story (FS crashed and PC rebooted but some time later user gets an email informing them they've been kicked for inactivity).

So although on the face of it what you say is correct, I'm starting to think that it's not beyond the realm of possibility that in some circumstances the network might not 'time out' inactive connections properly and thus people may appear to be connected when they may in fact not be.

I imagine this is going to be very difficult to reproduce or track down but perhaps worthy of some further investigation by the network people at some point and something for supervisors to have in mind as a possibility?

If you think that it's a network issue, then please do report it on this thread where the appropriate team will be able to look into it. 

https://forums.vatsim.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39983

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