atc-discussion People cutting the queue?

[John Mawston]

I do not agree that visitors (of any rating) should be allowed preferential treatment when it comes to providing them with mentoring, no.

As I say, if you value the gain to the RTS by controlling hours then it makes no difference whether the UK or the visiting controller gets trained first. They would still take up X number of hours mentoring.

[Scott Diamond]

I have had a Heathrow validation for quite some time but I've barely controlled there for a variety of reasons. Do you think when it comes to mentoring, I should have still been ahead of Johan, who is a C1 (or C3)? Despite the fact that - at the time I got my validation - I was an S1? Why do you disagree with this so much? I believe the priority should be from highest to lowest rating, visiting controller or not. Heathrow isn't anyone's Home RTS anyway so technically we're all visitors to it. What's wrong with letting a visitor who is a C1 get a validation before a home controller who is an S2 and will more than likely take longer/be unable to be used on more positions (C1 could cover area sectors and approach etc)? Can't be xenophobia ...? (tongue in cheek)

[John Mawston]

Xenophobia? no. A want to make sure that any UK controllers who want to control British positions can with minimal delay? Yes.

[Scott Diamond]

They can?

[Neil Stewart]

OK.

Controller A is a visiting C1, they will only control during events when Heathrow is covered by other people.

Controller B is a UK controller of S3 rating. They will control Heathrow director during the same events but cannot get the validation because their training place is taken by controller A who doesn't need the validation.

Then Controller C who is an S2 is waiting for the validation so they can control the tower during the same event but don't get it because controllers A and B are ahead of them.

Now the only person with the validation is the 1 person who doesn't need it. How is that logical?

[Scott Diamond]

Controller A is a visiting C1 controller who is keen to control Heathrow reasonably regularly.

Controller B is a UK controller of S3 rating, who only wants the validation and will hardly control after getting it.

Controller C is a UK controller waiting for the validation so they can control tower during some event but they don't get it in time because Controller A is there covering Area/Approach sectors whilst Controller B doesn't bother controlling.

Your scenario can be twisted around in anyone's favour, Neil.

[Adam Arkley]

It may seem a little bizzare, but a system has been decided upon and is in effect. As George has explained; the more experienced, and thus (hopefully) quicker to learn students will take less time, so the queue is more efficient.

[Johan Grauers]

Neil, your resoning presumes that the visitors will never control the positions they train for, why would a visitor be any more or less probable to control the position they themselfs requested training for?

[James Lewis]

When you say "organise who is where on the priority list" I get told about 7 mounths ago by the then RTSM that i was at the top of this list,k 7 mounths later i still feel like i am tacking 2 steps forward and 1 step back

*Facepalm*

[Neil Stewart]

Neil, your resoning presumes that the visitors will never control the positions they train for, why would a visitor be any more or less probable to control the position they themselfs requested training for?

Those who have held their rating for the longest period will be placed in front of those who haven't. We have put this in place so those who need a validation to control London sectors etc aren't prohibited from doing so just because they don't have a Heathrow validation.

So the visiting C1 needs the validation because otherwise he's prohibited from controlling the London sectors but has no interest in controlling Heathrow. Ergo space taken by person who doesn't need it but has to have it.

[Scott Diamond]

What do you mean "who doesn't need it but has to have it"? That's a bit of a contradiction! They do need it as certain London sectors control EGLL top-down which is a major aerodrome, therefore the area controller requires the validation... so they "need" it and "have to have it". Do you think this requirement should be removed?

[Neil Stewart]

No, but look at the stats of the visiting controllers. The C1's all control area during events when Heathrow is covered by lower positions. According to the rules, the C1 needs the validation but never uses it.

[Kris Thomson]

No, but look at the stats of the visiting controllers. The C1's all control area during events when Heathrow is covered by lower positions. According to the rules, the C1 needs the validation but never uses it.

Neil,

The reason this happens is because we need C1's to cover sector splits during events and we do not always have enough C1's to cover this. That is why visiting C1's will end up on area during the event. Does that make sense?

Kris

[Neil Stewart]

It does, but controlling area doesn't need a Heathrow validation. If area doesn't have enough C1's, validated controllers cover the TC positions, and non validated cover C/N/W etc. Training place still not needed and is free for those who DO want to control Heathrow. To be a UK S3 controller and waiting for ages to get a validation to be bumped by a C1 who swans in having gained their rating in the Outer Mongolia last week, because they are a C1 who want's to control a London position.

Effective use and allocation of staff makes sense. Clear the backlog of UK members waiting before letting visiting members "because they are easier to mentor". If I turned around in work and said I only want the easy cases, my boss would have me out of the door faster than I can say no.

[Samuel James]

Neil, we're not saying we want to avoid the S2's because they aren't easy to mentor... We are doing it this way because it is more EFFICIENT to validate S3s/C1s first.

Besides, there are only 3 division visitors compared to 17 UK controllers in the current wait list. In my eyes, visitors can be just as helpful as UK Division controllers so let's not get too judgemental!! And if at least 1 visitor can help mentor or control regularly then there's no harm done.

Your argument doesn't stand Neil - we have loads of home-bred validated S2s and S3s yet we hardly see the majority of them control Heathrow regularly do we?

Edited November 25, 2011 by Samuel James