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People cutting the queue?


Leon Hunter
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So visiting controlers get prioraty over home controlers? that is not on! Its ok people keep saying be paitiont but the fact is that i have only had about 7 sessions in a year despits continious avalibiliaty, and i probbly speek for most of the people at a home S2 ration.

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Gents,

The list is not yet complete. Those of you sliding slowly down the list are being moved because of higher rated members joining. For an S2, this is not a problem at all - higher rated members will need only a couple of sessions on TWR before they move up to APP and give their places back to you. When the RTS opens there will be no new joiners, so you'll be fixed in your place.

No one is cutting the queue because the queue isn't finished yet.

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I am a member of the rts. I just cant see why visiting members at an S3 or CTR ration should have pioriaty over home controlers. And regardless or ration the list should work as who was the last person to have a session and how close you are to getting vallidation. As i say some of us has been trying for a year, and the reasion why we are not vallidated is because we have not had the sessions. And i have had continuas blocks of avilibillity. and whats more it seems strange why members passes there s2 exams then 3 weeks later they are heathrow vallidated and i am not along with others. . can someone please explane that to me and the rest of us. Why is it tacking so lont to pass a heathrow vallidation????????? its like trying to get your s2 ration allover agane

Edited by Christopher Morton
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I am a member of the RTS. I just can't see why visiting members at an S3 or CTR rating should have priority over home controllers. Regardless of their rating, the list should work on who was the last person to have a session and how close they are to getting vallidation. As I say, some of us has been trying for a year, and the reason why we are not validated is because we have not had the sessions. And I have had continuous blocks of availability and what's more, it seems strange that some members pass their S2 exam then 3 weeks later they are heathrow vallidated and I am not, along with others. . can someone please explain that to me and the rest of us. Why is it taking so long to pass a heathrow validation? it's like trying to get your S2 rating all over again

Hi Chris,

For someone so keen to get mentoring, I was quite surprised to see that you didn't even turn up to your last session...

Without wanting to s**t-stir too much...have you considered that the length of time that it has taken you to validate might also be related to how well you have been controlling during your mentoring sessions rather than just how far apart the sessions have been? Granted, there are the HSPs to be learnt but, other than that, a lot of Heathrow controlling is identical to other TWR positions and, as such, should not be that difficult to grasp for S2s who have already passed an exam elsewhere.

Having said that, there will be those who pick it up faster than others and therefore validate quicker. Instead of seeing it as a competition to get validated before someone else, why don't you concentrate on your own progression. If there is something concerning you about your own mentoring, e-mail the relevant RTS staff. Rest assured that it is in no one's interest to hold people back from validating, once you are ready you will be allowed to carry on by yourself! As I'm sure you know the number of available mentors is the limiting factor and, from what I've seen of the bookings list, they are doing a pretty good job!

For what it's worth, I do agree though that home controllers should be given priority over visiting controllers as, to my knowledge, visiting controllers are not able to mentor in this division and, as such, will not be in a position to give anything back to the RTS in return for the preferential treatment given to them.

J

Edited by John Mawston
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That's something that we'll look at for next time - I appreciate that showing your place in the queue before the list is complete is confusing, and annoying when you see yourself move down the ranks. Apologies for that.

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For what it's worth, I do agree though that home controllers should be given priority over visiting controllers as, to my knowledge, visiting controllers are not able to mentor in this division and, as such, will not be in a position to give anything back to the RTS in return for the preferential treatment given to them. J

Well that's news to me - we've just had 1 visiting controller join the EGLL mentoring team... I wasn't aware of this restriction - is it documented anywhere and if so can it be changed so they can give something back should they wish?

You have hit the nail on the head John. Visiting S3 and C1s are again likely not to take an excessive amount of time to pass a validation. We have to be flexible and let some visitors in - Once they are validated, they can give back to the RTS by controlling and mentoring if so desired, which will help accelerate the wait times experienced by less experienced S2s waiting for a place.

Chris, I have no idea why you are complaining. If you had bothered to turn up to your sessions and stop cancelling them then you would be progressing at a much faster rate, so don't give me this rubbish about having continuous availability in and not getting sessions picked up - I'm not buying it! This goes without saying to anyone else within the RTS. Our mentors generally have good availability so there should be no excuse about sessions not being picked up. If you are having issues, then for goodness sake, CONTACT ME!!

To re-iterate - 30th November is the cutoff date for the current waiting list. We are looking at up to a maximum of 24 new controllers to join the RTS on the current list.

Regarding the RTS Waiting list which some of you may have seen - This is a new feature of the RTS System which I have used to help organise who is where on the priority list. It was my attempt to be transparent and open to you all so you know where you are in the waiting game. Your place at the moment isn't necessarily guaranteed until set in stone so don't get hung up on the current number as it may be subject to change!

I have also as of today, closed/denied applications for any more further visiting controllers due to the current demand.

Edited by Samuel James
Closed to visitors.
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When you say "organise who is where on the priority list" I get told about 7 mounths ago by the then RTSM that i was at the top of this list,k 7 mounths later i still feel like i am tacking 2 steps forward and 1 step back

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Chris, I have no idea why you are complaining. If you had bothered to turn up to your sessions and stop cancelling them then you would be progressing at a much faster rate, so don't give me this rubbish about having continuous availability in and not getting sessions picked up - I'm not buying it! This goes without saying to anyone else within the RTS. Our mentors generally have good availability so there should be no excuse about sessions not being picked up. If you are having issues, then for goodness sake, CONTACT ME!!

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For what it's worth, I do agree though that home controllers should be given priority over visiting controllers as, to my knowledge, visiting controllers are not able to mentor in this division and, as such, will not be in a position to give anything back to the RTS in return for the preferential treatment given to them.

J

I am one of these people, I am a visiting and not mentoring in the UK (or in Sweden anymore but that's a different matter).

I am hoping that the controller hours I give back will be the thanks for the time spent on my training, I have so far (IIRC) had 3 mentoring sessions. I am expecting to have some more at Heathrow but to be honest I don't think it will be that many.

Up until today I have controlled a bit more than 80 hours in the UK, this means that for every mentoring session the UK division has recived over 25 hours control.

I (granted, as a visitor) thinks it's a fair policy. I can not imagine the time required to train a visiting C3 controller is more than any S2, it simply makes sense to me to make this priority. It gives the Heathrow RTS a chance to as quickly as possible train validate more controllers, something that will hopefully lead to more controlling which leads to more fun for all of us. By training higher ratings first you also train the highest number of potential mentors as quickly as possible. Which means there will hopefully be even more mentors coming to help to train the ones that are left further down the queue, speeding up the process once more.

I can understand the feeling of being at spot 24 in the queue, but in the end I belive the reasoning is that this will be the most efficent use of the RTS's resources, to me personally that makes sense.

Edited by Johan Grauers
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But Johan, from a home controller's point of view, can you not see that having lots of visiting controllers coming over is taking up mentoring hours that they could be using?Hours which, in my opinion, should be used in the first instance for their training?

This may sound more harsh than I mean it but, having a visiting controller control a UK position is no more a service for the UK than having a home controller do the same. Why should someone who already has access to many other positions in other divisions be given immediate preferential treatment when they come to the UK?

Sam,

Sorry, I don't have any documentary evidence to support that. I will have a hunt around tonight though.

J

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Because it saves mentoring time, not in every case, but in general. This was the reason I calculated the average time I controlled per mentoring session. In the end the goal with every mentoring session and all training is to achive more controllers controlling, right?

I see why it can be both annoying and upsetting, but I also see why the decision has been made and I personally belive it was made on a sound reasoning.

Edited by Johan Grauers
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Having a visiting controller swoop in and almost expect to be mentored before any home students is saving mentoring time? you might have to run that one past me again!

This is not about the average number of controlling hours per mentoring session received. That is irrelevant here, you should be looking at the net gain the RTS takes from having a controller validate.

Situation 1: Home controller validates, controls solo, begins to mentor. RTS gains: 1 validated controller, 1 mentor.

Situation 2: Visiting controller validates, controls solo. RTS gains: 1 validated controller. RTS loses: 1 training spot for home controller and ultimately one mentor's less training provision for the next batch of students.

If you have one home controller and on visiting controller (regardless of rating) the overall training time can be assumed to be the same whether you train the home or the visitor first. Why should the visitor be given priority just because he already has a higher rating than the UK student?

Bear in mind that this visiting controller isn't even allowed to spend more than 50% of their time online as an ATCO in the UK...your argument of big controlling hours doesn't really stand up there either! Not even starting with the visitor having to learn UK-ICAO differences on top of Heathrow specifics on top of any language barrier!

Edited by John Mawston
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Where is all this 50% time in the UK, can't mentor etc stuff coming from for visitors? Did someone lose their mind when they drafted up the visitors' policy?

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Having a visiting controller swoop in and almost expect to be mentored before any home students is saving mentoring time? you might have to run that one past me again!

This is not about the average number of controlling hours per mentoring session received. That is irrelevant here, you should be looking at the net gain the RTS takes from having a controller validate.

Situation 1: Home controller validates, controls solo, begins to mentor. RTS gains: 1 validated controller, 1 mentor.

Situation 2: Visiting controller validates, controls solo. RTS gains: 1 validated controller. RTS loses: 1 training spot for home controller and ultimately one mentor's less training provision for the next batch of students.

If you have one home controller and on visiting controller (regardless of rating) the overall training time can be assumed to be the same whether you train the home or the visitor first. Why should the visitor be given priority just because he already has a higher rating than the UK student?

Bear in mind that this visiting controller isn't even allowed to spend more than 50% of their time online as an ATCO in the UK...your argument of big controlling hours doesn't really stand up there either! Not even starting with the visitor having to learn UK-ICAO differences on top of Heathrow specifics on top of any language barrier!

I think it comes down to how you define gain for the RTS. For me the UK gains when more controllers can control more hours. Not everyone will mentor even of the home controllers, by your definition their training is a break even to the RTS, to me every controller that is trained, validated and control hours have given something back. How much controlling time that's required to "make up" for a mentoring session is down to each's personal preference. But to me it is still a gain to train persons that do not mentor, I take it by your reasoning you do not agree (at least not in the case with visiting controllers)?

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